Monday, May 21, 2007

Blasphemy, huh?

Yes, I'm still alive. True, silly things like office work have interrupted more important things like blogging. But other than that, life is good!

Before going into serious issues at hand, let me disclose my love for French movies! Europeans have taken movies to an altogether different plane. Frankly, if you aren't already addicted to French movies, there is something seriously wrong with you. So this afternoon, I went to see Paris, Je t'aime. Its a collection of 18 five minute movies. Among them the one I liked the most was a romantic first encounter between a French Muslim girl and a history student. When he helps her to set right her hijab (scarf) after a fall, his friends taunt him, "dude, why did you touch her hair? Osama will personally bomb your a** for this!" hmm... director's sense of humor while handling a sensitive issue.

But alas some Sikh fanatics could not appreciate the sense of humor when Dera Sacha Sauda chief comically dressed himself like the Tenth Sikh Guru Gobind Singh. But what I found really hilarious was some sikhs calling this as 'Blasphemy'. I think 'Blasphemy' is a serious word more appropriate for conventional religions. Not so for quasi-sects like Sikhism. The failure to understand this has cost thousands of Indian lives in the past.

A brief history of Sikhism for upstarts. Punjab has been at the forefront of Hindu-Muslim clashes for close to 1300 years now. It has also been immersed in the waves of Sufism equally long. So Guru Nanak, who lived in the period of religious turmoil in Mughal India created a sect with concepts like 'there is no allah or ram, but only one god' and 'do your work, share the fruits' etc. I think he was more like the Shiridi Sai baba than likes of Buddha, Mahavira, Sankara etc.

Guru Nanak then nominated one Guru Angad as his successor, who also seems to have displayed some spiritual inclination. But after that 'Sikhism' was more pre-occupied with rituals and politics. All the other 'Gurus' who followed him were members of one single family and some fought like warlords against the Mughals. One such 'guru' was five years old at his ascent and 'nominated' his uncle as the successor when he died aged seven! And finally the Tenth Guru Gobind singh, who also established the Khalsa, nominated the Granth Sahib (the holy book) as the eternal 'guru'. This may have been because all his children and wife were killed by the Mughals. Now I cannot see what harm could have been caused if Baba Ram Rahim Singh had dressed himself like this tenth 'Guru'. You guys want to burn Punjab for this?

And whats worse, the whole Khalistan movement was started on such ludicrous competition between some sects of the sikh 'religion' before turning into a wholesale war against India. So for all people who follow similar 'gurus' or 'divines' like Sai baba, Shivshankar baba, Yagava Munivar, Ram Rahim Singh, Guru Gobind Singh etc, here's my humble request. Fights between your gurus may look very spiritual and important to you folks. But for outsiders like me, they look very funny. (Just as all religions look funny to agnostics and atheists). But when my fellow Indians get killed because of such fights, its no longer funny. Its disgusting. So please do not repeat the mistakes of the past.

84 comments:

Sameer Bhagwat said...
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Balaji said...
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Sidhusaaheb said...

You might be able to understand better, the level of intellect of the Sikh Gurus, about whom you have chosen to pass some derogatory comments, if you were to try and find out more about the contents of the Guru Granth Sahib.

Translations of the contents of the Guru Granth Sahib (in entirety) are available in English and Hindi, among other languages.

Till then, for you, ignorance, I suppose, is bliss!

Balaji said...

Maybe I'm ignorant. But atleast I'm trying to learn. While I'm at it, something struck me as odd and I have written it in my blog. Simple.

I have no doubt that Granth Sahib/other Sikh texts have lot of good things to say. Afterall apart from their own contribution, the Gurus borrowed liberally from known Hindu and Muslim scholars.

I have already acknowledged that Guru Nanak and Guru Angad contributed lot of spiritual knowledge. Even Guru Amar Das seems to have contributed lots of rituals.

But for an outsider like me, Gurus appointing their relatives as successors is a little bizarre. I know it happened in the Islamic Caliphates too. But atleast that practice was questioned even at that time leading to Shia, Sunni division.

But is 7th century Arabia same as 15 century India? Seems two other Indians were able to make similar contributions some 2000 years earlier.

If Guru Nanak could reject the claims of his son leading to the Udaseen movement, why didn't his successors follow such high standards?

And this violence. Well, discussing that will make this comment really long! For now its suffice to say that, in a sense, Sikhs praising latter day Gurus is not very unlike Congressmen praising Rahul Gandhi. Rahul Gandhi is open to criticism, so are the Gurus.

Funny, this dynastic politics plagues Punjab to this day. How many political families fought the recent Assembly elections?

Puru said...

interesting post - i am waiting for some sikh clan to kidnap you...

Sifar said...

....“All the other 'Gurus' who followed him were members of one single family and some fought like warlords against the Mughals”....

First off, it was not one single family. It was a vastly branched extended family; if you do some reaserch you will know. And secondly, Sikhism set an example by passing Guruship to someone who was not a family member as done by Guru Nanak Dev jee. But Guru Nanak Dev jee did not make it a prerequisite that disqualifies one to become a Guru just for being a family member. If certain qualities were not seen in children of Guru, then Guru did not think it was right to pass the Guruship to sons. Sons of Guru Nanak Dev jee equally qualified in getting the Guruship as they had vast knowlwdge on the matter (religion) but they lacked on other qualities like humbleness, obedience, treating everyone at par. So by passing GuruShip to one of his own sons, Guru Nanak might have seen the possibility of the purpose being foiled for which Sikhism was initiated. Same was the case with other Gurus who had more than one sons but instead of passing the Guruship to the eldest son (that is/was the tradition prevalent in hollow Hindu Society), it was given to other (younger) sons, based on the the same ideology (of Guru Nanak Dev jee detailed above).

And if some of the Gurus didnot fight with Mughals like warlords, then you could bet your ass (even if you are an agnostics or an atheists) that you would have been celebrating id at a Mosque before you came to US and you would have been writing as “Balam Ali Khan” instead of Balaji Ganeshan and after 9/11, you would have to register yourself in US so that the US government could have your where abouts so that they could shove it up your ass as they have done it with many Muslims in US.


....“And finally the Tenth Guru Gobind singh, who also established the Khalsa, nominated the Granth Sahib (the holy book) as the eternal 'guru'. This may have been because all his children and wife were killed by the Mughals”....

This pretty much shows how handicapped you are when it comes to thinking broadly and correctly. You yourself said that Guruship was passed with in family. So if the immediate family of Guru Gobind Singh jee was no more, if he wanted another Guru in body form, he could have very well picked someone up from the extended family. But he pretty much saw what was coming in the future (people claiming to be Gurus like Gurmeet Ram Rahim, with no spiritual values) and he decided to put an end to it by installing (not nominating) the Holy Granth as Guru Granth.


....“Now I cannot see what harm could have been caused if Baba Ram Rahim Singh had dressed himself like this tenth 'Guru'. You guys want to burn Punjab for this?”....

I could understand if Ram Rahim Singh dressed like “Krishna or Rama or Shiva or Vishnu or bloody elephant head Ganesha” and you asked the same question to Hindus. They certainly would have no problem as Hinduism is full of such Dramas and there may be hundreds of movies where some filthy actors who may be doing all kind of rubbish acts in personal lives may have acted as Hindu Gods. But have you ever seen a movie where you have seen any actor playing a role of Sikh Gurus. I have not seen any. The reason being is that in Sikhism it is not a custom to act like Sikh Gurus and make a mockery out of it. So to you as an outsider or an agnostic or an atheist it may be no big deal, but to a true Sikh it is.


....“You cannot make people think unless you catch their attention. In anycase I know way too much about religions to indulge in a fight of 'faith' with you here to prove that”....

We do not need your post for us to motivate us to think. And if you really know that much about religions, then I don’t think your post would have sounded as if you were farting out of your ass, as pointed out by one of the comment writer.

Balaji said...

1. So on 8 different occasions, Sikh Gurus could not find worthy people outside their 'extended' family to pass on the baton? How is a five year old child worthy to be learned Guru? Do you think I will buy this cock and bull story?

2. Hindus survived Muslim atrocities for 800 years before Guru Nanak Dev came into being. And infact Mughals weren't the worst Muslim rulers. Indians owe more to Rajputs, Vijayanagar empire and the Marathas than to Sikhs. Infact I (being a Tamil) owe nothing to Sikhs. Hindus in Punjab were an island surrounded by Muslims and they duly abandoned their religion under the leadership of some Sikh chieftains. How different is Sikhism from Din-E-lahi? Having said that I do appreciate the contribution of the 'Gurus' in their role as Military Chiefs. But religion/philosophy is a different sphere altogether.

3. We know the struggles of Guru Gobind Singh just before his death. You have as much right to attach divine and high morality to his Guru Granth Sahib decision just I have the right to attach practical reasoning to the same.

4. Firstly what do you and Sameer know about my religious beliefs to bitch about Hinduism. My definition of 'Hindu religion' is that of religion of the people of India. (Infact my personal 'religion' is very different, but I still call it Hinduism. More on that maybe on a later post.)

Religions based on strong foundations and philosophy find no need to deify their Gurus. Especially when the Gurus are just kings/chiefs like Guru Gobind Singh. (Politicians/Kings/Chiefs need not necessarily be bad. I consider 'Lord Ram' if he ever existed, to be just a King.) If Sikh Gurus had contributed extensively to Human understanding of the 'unknowns' like Buddha, Mahavira, Sankara, Zoraster, Confusious etc, I would be more than willing to celebrate them. And I have already said that Guru Nanak was on a different plane than the remaining nine 'Gurus'.

Deification of a book as Guru or divine is the worst thing that can happen to a religion. Theories are bound be contradicted, reformed and rewritten. You only have to look at Manu's Smriti, Sharia etc to understand the dangers of deifying Guru Granth Sahib.

5. By claiming to know a lot more about religions, I only tried to keep the discussions at a lot higher intellectual level than personal abuse.

Why this post? If even one person got to know that 9 out of 10 Sikh 'Gurus' came from one 'extended' family, the purpose of this post has been served.

Anonymous said...
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MAI said...

I am not going to criticise this post. I'll let others do that

I am only going to make a simple statement of fact: if it wasn't for us Sikhs, all Hindu males would have a 'Muhammed' stuck somewhere in their name.

You, along with most other Hindus, need to learn a little about respect and appreciation.

A simple thank you would be a lot more appropriate than a round dissing.

Anonymous said...

Balaji read

http://worldsikhnews.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=563&Itemid=29

This is published from California,
and since your're also based there,
you can improve your knowledge of Sikhism by interacting with these wise guys.

Balaji said...

The last three commenters,

Guys, please read my post as well as my replies to the comments above before throwing inanities like 'your religion is screwed up', 'hindus owe to sikhs', 'read about sikhs' etc.

Can't you guys see from the discussions above that I may already know more about religion than you yourself do.

If you can dispute any of my views with facts or your own theories, then please do. Otherwise don't waste my time.

My blog is strictly for intelligent people who may want to discuss issues meaningfully by which both of us can learn. I won't reply to personal abuse anymore.

KOSHISH said...

I am very much tempted to jump into this conversation. I am not a Hindu or Sikh or Christian but I am the new world's latest threat.. I am a muslim and I happen to be from India.
I once wrote on this blog about how now I can relate to the Sikhs in the 1980's, those looks, those comments, that suspicion, that mistrust that mass media missrepresentation etc.

Comming to Balaji's point "Why I say so, because i have done some research on Sikhism in the last few days, have gone and seen the history, and some sketches of guru gobind singh ji show no signs of the matching costume or any matching act" Sorry to say but .. doing some resarch in few days, seeing som sketches or seeing history (whatever that meant) can never make you understand thing better than a guy who was born a Sikh and has been raised with the values and inside criticism of the religion he follows. It is very similar to saying that "I saw some hollywood movies and then went to New York and Los Angeles and Miami and tallked t people have comcluded that Americans half naked, but good natured people and that country can never indulge in any wrong doing" You have to come her and live within the communites and interatct with them and do it all over US to get SOME IDEA of what US and Americans are. Same is the case with you comments on Dear and Sikh dispute.

As a matter of fact this is the latest trend among educated people like you that I despise most. There are good people on the right who follow some religion and have some beliefs and there are good people onthe left who are secular and agnostics etc and they keep to themselves their beleif but then there are smart asses like you who think that they "know all" just because you READ and SAW some literature and pictures here and there and therefore you can now criticize and attack any person who defends or tries to stick to his faith.

KOSHISH said...

part 2
The way I see the Dera sikh conflict is just like the Ahmadi muslims in Paksitan who Call themselves muslims and are followers of Mirza Ghulam AHmed who claimed to be the promised Messiah and Mahdi and that his advent was in fulfilment of the various prophecies regarding the promised reformer of the latter days. The problem was not why he believed whatever he believed but that he introduced something new and promoted himself as the promised one (FYI: as per the muslims belief one quality of the the promised reformer will be that he will hesitate and others who will identify him will insist and push him to be the leader). It would have been OK if he said that he and his followers are a new religion or sect and are a new entity ..just like the Nation of Islam sect in the US.

Bottom line is you want to create a new religion or sect.. thats fine but dont tell me how I should follow and understand my own religion or faith and that you understand better than me how somone's actions have hurt my religious feelings.If cracking jokes at your gods and avatars is ok for you and is a laughing matter then thats fine withme. What isno fine with me is that you do the same for my God and religions and expect me to consider it a laughing matter like you. That is what is called fundamentalism and fanticism. To enforce your ideology on others. So if some sikhs felt offended by a "comical dressing up like Guru Sahib" then have all the right to protest agaisnt it.

Balaji said...

Koshish,

Part 1: True, I learnt that all the Gurus after Guru Nanak belonged to one family only last week. In fact in a reply above, I have specifically mentioned that this new revelation was the motivation for this post. This new discovery has made me look at Sikhism from a different perspective, albeit an unfavorable one.

But I have been studying world religions for many years now. I have repeatedly questioned many aspects of Hinduism and have talked about Judaism, Islam and Christianity in my previous posts. So I definitely didn't write this post with an agenda to defame Sikhism. I feel the liberty to criticize anyone and this has always resulted in me learning new things from that episode.

I can't see where I have questioned Sikh beliefs in this post. Religion is all about faith and I'm not stupid to ridicule that. My whole point was that the Sikh Gurus were themselves ordinary human beings who lead Sikhs through turbulent times (with their own failings as their dynastic culture indicates). So criticizing them doesn't constitute questioning the Sikh faith. I'm sure Sikh faith doesn't include anything like "we don't question our Guru's behavior". If some Sikhs who have commented here think that way, I pity them.

Besides in the normal lexicon, 'Blasphemy' constitutes acts which go against the teachings/practices/faith of a religion by its own followers. Using that to attack other sects and asking them to vacate Punjab etc arise only because of the unnecessary deification of the Sikh Gurus.

Part 2:

Thanks for the Ahmadi pointer. Will learn about it. But I'm sure you'll appreciate that India with its multi-religious history and secular fundamentals makes it mandatory to respect the religious freedom of others.

If Dera Sacha Sauda wants to imitate the Sikhs, there is nothing that can stop them. By writing about Sikh history, I was telling Sikhs that your founding fathers also did something similar some 400 years ago.

India has seen innumerable philosophers/saints like Guru Nanak who proposed their theories and won followers. There was always some 'forking' involved. Only idiots reinvent the wheel.

Even agnostics and atheists call themselves 'Hindus' in this country and nobody is protesting against them. The proper thing for the Sikhs to do would be to have faith in their own religion and ignore others who may or may not be trying to copy them.

Calling frog in the well..... said...
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Anonymous said...
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Anonymous said...

Mr balaji

I have few south indian friends at toronto. With somewhat similar name. Actually, we became best friends and I have stayed at there place for few weeks.

I met his family, extended family and friends and even attended hindu temple with all respects with his friends. we had good discussions on religions and at end came to the conclusion that every human being is longing for that supreme power which we call God by different names.

If we keep on embarking on negative things that our mind creates for the sake of entertainment or not realizing its content. which is sub human. We have to realize that same consicousness is every where.

Its lot easy fall down to sub human levels than rising above human levels.

If you really would like to have intellectual discussions then your posting would have reflected that, but instead you began to elaborate on your collected knowledge of few days.

Still you have no clue what you are talking about! It seems like that you might have had bad experience or an instant in your life which propels you to write this way.

However, I know that you have a better side in you and I will keep my mind focused on that part of you. One day, when your better side will expand it will give you the right answers.

So, lets not become or act like Philosopher after acquiring some information.

Personally, I have studied Bible for three years in my undergrad. I don't think it makes me a philosopher in that area.

Dear, knowledge is vast so don't limit yourself to a small pond.

take care.

Balaji said...

When was anonymous comments blocked on my blog?!

>> knowledge is vast so don't limit yourself to a small pond.

Thats precisely what I'm doing here, expanding my knowledge by writing about the stuff I learn and discussing that with people who have interest in the subject.

Having learnt some surprising aspects of the Sikh Gurus, I'm trying to find what others feel about it. Unfortunately there has been just one commenter so far, who has expressed his views about the behavior of the Sikh Gurus.

A friend of mine (who hasn't commented here), opined that other religions may have also done something similar. Hence I voluntarily brought the Islamic Caliphates here in the discussion. Smart commenters would have tried to corner me with comparisons to the selection procedure of Sankaracharyas, Dalai Lamas etc.

Balaji said...

calling frog in the well,

I'm ignoring all your personal insults against me. Try elsewhere.

There is a difference between 'questioning a guru' and 'questioning his behavior'. When you question his teachings (which in itself is not bad), you lack faith. So you no longer follow him. But when you question the personal behavior of the Gurus you are asking whether that person is even qualified to be your Guru.

calling the frog in the well.... said...

Are you man of your words or not? I thought you said that you will not be answering to any abusers. And when you pass derogatoray remaks about my Guru,it is a personal insult to me as well. Any how, when I said questioning the Guru, it implied behaviour only and I do not see any behaviour that I can question that was displayed by any of my Gurus. If I follow Guru's teaching, it is understood that there cannot be any action that the Guru will display that I will need to question, or else, I will not follow the Guru in the first place. But if you have the mental block that Gurus passed Guru's position with in their family, that is your problem buddy and you should deal with it and move the freak on. Your calling the 10th Guru just a King is totally totally unjustified. Have you even read a line composed by the 10th Guru. The knowledge that you claim that you have on Sikhism is not even a needle in the hay stack and based on that superficial knowledge you got the expertises to call the 10 Gurus as ordinay humans. Get a freaking life you...

Your Guru Ram Rahim (who you advocate so much) should be questioned though for his actions of work place harrasment of members of opposite sex and that of murder.

Balaji said...

My guru Ram Rahim Singh? Good Joke. When I'm questioning even the Sikh Gurus, what makes you think that I will follow Rah Rahim Singh?

I have absolutely no problem with Sikhs following their Gurus. Just that I would like them to let others follow their own 'Gurus' in Punjab instead of issuing hukumnaamas to boycott them.

Calling the frog in the well..... said...

Yes, boycott them. But the options are open. The ball is in their court now and if sincere appology is tendered of the mockery that Gurmeet Ram Rahim made, everyone can co-exist peacefully. Thats what Sikhism is all about, Live and let live. But that does not mean that any Tom Dick or Harry (Gurmeet Ram or Rahim) can walk all over us.

Akal Takhat Willing to Make up

harpreet said...

dude,

theres a simple thing u missed. if it was not for the sacrifices of Guru Gobind Singh your name would be Mohammed instead of Balaji.

--
harpreet

PS: little knowledge is a dangerous thing. if you cant really understand the philosophy behind an act then cursory reading will only make your comments look dumber.

Mr. Singh said...

Balaji, the Gurus from Guru Ram Das Ji onwards all belonged to one family (the Sodhi lineage). I fail to see why if the Gurus deemed that the most suitable person to carry on the Guruship, happened to be their relative then why should they not apss it on to them. Each and every Guru showed humility beyond comparison. If you can show a more worthy successor than any of the Gurus during their time, then lets discuss them in detail.
Not too sure if you aware but it was not simply a case of passing the Guruship to the oldest son. In which case Guru Arjan Dev Ji (shaheedan de Sartaj) would not have been made Guru. It was which ever person showed all the right qualities of a sikh teacher.

You questioned the validity of calling a five year old child a Guru. I assume you are reffering to Guru HarKrishan Ji. Well my friend a pandit named Lal Chand made the very same mistake of actually questioning the age of the Guru, and how he can be called HarKrishan. Guru Ji gave a water carrier Chaju Ram the ability to discourse the Gita with the pandit. The Pandit at this point saw the greatness of the "child" Guru, and from that point became his follower.

Guru Gobind Singh just didn't fight against Mughals. He fought against tyranny, be it in the form of Mughals or the Hill chiefs (who were hindus).

As the sufi Poet Bulleh Shah put it quite brilliantly - "Na mein kahoon ab ki, na tab ki. Agar na hote Guru Gobind Singh Ji, to hindustan mein hoti sunnat sab ki".

Balaji said...

Harpreet,

I have already replied to this line of argument above. Sikhs who have read Indian History won't make such solitary claims. "Little Knowledge is dangerous"?!!! Funny.

Mr. Singh,

Thanks for taking the effort to give me the above details. Yes, I was aware that Guruship didn't pass to the eldest son. But as I have explained, it must be a strange coincidence that on 8 successive occasions, Gurus couldn't find worthy successors from outside.

As for your 'child guru' anecdote is concerned, I'm sure you would agree that, I should be an extra-ordinarily unquestioning follower to believe such stories.

But what do Sikhs have to loose in entertaining the possibility that Sikh Gurus may have wanted to maintain the family hegemony over the clan just like most other kings. There is nothing to be ashamed of. I mentioned this in the post only to highlight the fact that all sects including Sikhism and DSS have to expand in some way at some point of time. The means adopted may not always be unquestionable.

Thanks for your comment nevertheless.

Kristen said...

Bala:
Yes, you can question all Gurus as an atheist, agnostic, Hindu, Christian etc. However, you must understand that you should present your argument in a way that it does not hurt sentiments of faithful. First look at definition of religion and then elaborate on your opinion on religion. It is impossible to write in a compassionate way? On any public forum you have responsibility to present information in a neutral way. You have every right to criticize response of Sikhs with regard to Dera controversy. However, at the same time you don’t have to completely misinterpret philosophy of Sikhism to justify your point of view. I am simply not a big fan of writing that invokes negative perceptions among people. Cheap sarcasm without understanding facts does not fair well when you are talking about faith. Hopefully, you will take my comment as a criticism of your writing style then your opinion about Sikhism. I am not ready to discuss philosophy and history of Sikhism with you until you read a scholarly article on Sikhism.
P.S. Kings in this world don't send their young children to fight in a battlefield. The kings that you are comparing to Guru Gobind Singh Ji usually enjoy life of luxury at cost of poor people. I wish you read little bit about Guru Arjan Dev Ji before you start comparing Sikh Guru to Dera Chief. The Dera chief actually really lives life luxury while he teacher his followers to live simple life. I actually don’t have problem with Dera Chief dressing as Sikh Guru. However, I do have problem you making comparisons between Guru Gobind and Dera Chief.

Balaji said...

Kristen,

I have already explained the mild sarcasm in my posts. I have had people complaining about this ever since I started blogging. I don't care about people who hang onto every word I write here instead of responding to the general theme of the issues I raise.

For example, in this post, I had people complaining to me about the phrase "quasi-sect" I had used for Sikhism. Even Sikhs will admit that Sikhism is not a 'conventional' religion. Neither is Hinduism. In India there are several sects like Hare Krishna, Swaminarayan etc. Sikhism seemed a little different from them. So I used the phrase 'quasi-sect'. If people take that in the negative sense, then I cannot help it. This is my blog for heaven's sake. Not a treatise on religion.

At any rate, I have to keep my posts at a reasonable size. The options are to write a long boring post explaining everything. Or else to write a curt post and leave it to the reader to understand the context of the post. I have always the chosen the latter.

Nevertheless, this was the first time I actually reworded some of the passages to avoid stupid comments.

Regarding your claim that I should treat Guru Gobind Singh and the Dera Chief differently, don't you think your views are as subjective as mine? I mentioned the names of all Gurus who I think made significant contribution to Sikhism. And finally urged the followers of many sects to respect each others religious rights.

If you call Dera Chief, a criminal accused of murder who deserves no respect, I might even agree with you. But thats irrelevant to the theme of my post, as long as Dera's followers regard him as their Guru.

>> "Kings in this world don't send their young children to fight in a battlefield."

Sikh Gurus lived in the 17th century when almost every King sent his children to war.

Finally, I have no patience for people who urge me to read 'more'. I read enough to blog. I challenge them to point factual errors in my posts or convincingly argue a point with me instead of giving free advice.

Murali said...

Hey Balaji... I've been reading your blog for long time now. I thoroughly enjoyed reading some of your blogs like Cricket, etc & for the first time, I suggest that you stay away from commenting on sensitive issues like religious faiths, etc (especially when it comes to hurting sentiments of a large group of people seriously). There are other ways that you can acquire / improve your knowledge on these. I agree that I didn't read all of the below comments but still I could get the crux. Stay cool and enjoy your life.

Balaji said...

hmm, thanks for the suggestion Murali. But I can't see how I have 'hurt' the sentiments of anyone! Anyway whats the point in writing a politically correct blog? I could as well not write at all.

Mr. Singh said...

Balaji when you say the Gurus didn't want the guruship to pass to an outsider, that in itself would be a contradiction to Sikhi, as it would have been a form of attachment, which is prohibited in Sikhi. This kind of analogy is ridiculous in my eyes. The Gurus were far beyond fighting for kingdoms etc.

Even Gurus within the Sodhi clan never shirked from disowning their own if they went against sikhi. Ram Rai was disowned by Guru Har rai Ji for incorrectly translating a passage from the Granth to please the emperor.

Like i said before perhaps some evidence that there were more worthy contenders other than the Gurus, may help your case.

Are you also denying the work Guru Harkrishan Ji (the 5year old) did in Delhi in terms of curing people of small pox, untill he eventually caught the disease himself.

FlyingHigh said...

31 comments?? wait lemme read them :D

Shradha

Balaji said...

Mr. Singh,

You certainly have a very valid point. If the Sikh Gurus didn't have a wide following in their preaching days but were known only among their relatives, then the Gurus would have had no other option but to pass the baton to one among them.

I certainly have no idea how many people outside their family were following the Gurus. But I do observe the following,

1. Guru Nanak did choose someone outside the family to succeed him. Although he may have had reason to deny it to his elder son, their seems to have been a very intellectual and seemingly appreciable selection criteria in that episode.

2. What might have been the necessity to appoint a five year old? If I remember correctly (I maybe wrong) the military preparedness wasn't exactly a necessity when he was appointed. So he wasn't appointed at a time of some travesty.

Your two anecdotes on the child guru are some pointers that the family may have truly believed that he was divine. But this kind of belief although admirable can also be called irrational. Since I don't have the 'faith', I see it as an example that intellectual/spiritual acumen was not a criteria in this case.

3. I also see that Guruship has sometimes been passed to very old people within the family. This may also indicate that (I'm wildly guessing now) the Gurus didn't have a wide following. I understand that even Buddha, Mahavira and Jesus Christ etc didn't have a huge following when they were alive. But it nevertheless raises doubts about the intellectual and political contribution of some of these Gurus. Nothing wrong with that. And afterall isn't this I have always been saying since writing this post? Why am I getting brickbats for this?

4. I'm sure you understand that most Gurus in other religions were celibates. Now nothing wrong with Gurus getting married. I have no problems with claims that Jesus was married to Mary Magdalene either. I don't know exactly how many Gurus were married. I guess all except the child guru were married. Maybe you can help me with information here. But if the Gurus were discussing spiritual issues at a very higher level, I'm curious why they didn't choose to remain unmarried as it was common practice among Saints in India.

5. Sacrifice also seems to be high on the Sikh agenda. Its possible that Gurus appointed one among the family to protect outsiders from Muslim persecution. But won't celibacy and separation from family have made it a little easier? I guess Guru Gobind Singh finally saw the futility of this whole exercise and abolished the human Guruship.

So considering all this, I think I was correct in claiming that except Guru Nanak Dev, the others may not have contributed extensively to our spiritual knowledge. Afterall they were also involved in warfare. I'm sure anyone who analyzes all this and definitely most sikhs who know their religion will agree that Sikhism cannot (and I'm confident, it doesn't) claim divinity for the remaining Gurus. So where does the question of Blasphemy arise?

I could as well be a huge follower of Guru Nanak's teachings and simply ignore the remaining Gurus. And I know Sikh literature doesn't include the works of atleast three Gurus.

This is what my blog was all about. I was throwing more light into the phase of early Sikhism and urging Sikhs especially the Akal Takht to not take extreme positions with regard to other nascent sects like the Dera Sacha Sauda. What looks ridiculous today (Dera's chief action for example) may be religious history some day.

hmm, I'm happy that I had this discussion with you.

Mr. Singh said...

1. Pride and ego got in the way of Guru Nanaks sons. They felt it was their birth right to become the next Gurus, but they simply did not have the humility required. A simple example would be years later when the third Nanak (Guru Amar Das Ji) met srichand (Guru Nanaks oldest son), Srichand told Guru Amar Das Ji that he was sitting in his seat and kicked him. Guru AmarDas in all his humility apologised and said 'i hope my old and hard bones did not hurt you when you kicked me'. Sri Chand then went further 'Why do you have such a long beard'. Again Guru Amar Das Ji's reply was full of humility - 'It is to wipe the feet of saints like you'. At this point Sri Chand realised that he was indeed not worthy of the guruship. Much later when he took Baba Gurditta (Guru Hargobind Rai's oldest son)under his wings, the uddassi sect was bought back into the sikh fold.

2) There was conflict since the martyrdom of Guru Arjan Dev Ji. Guru Harkrishan Ji was called bala peer by muslims too. The light of Nanak was present in all the Gurus. For example if someoen was to read the bani at any given point the only way they would know which Guru has written it is from the marking on the mohla, otherwise the writings of all the Gurus intreflow with eachother beautifully.

3) i don't see age as an issue. If the Guru shows the sewa. The only old guru was Amar Das who was not in the family of his predecessor. Again the sewa he showed for his Guru (carrying a pitcher of water in the middle of the night for him. even walking backwards so his back was never turned on his guru) was examplary. His achievements include ridding the rituals of 'Sati' and the veil. - surely you can appreciate this from the old Guru.

4) The Gurus always propogated that you needed to appreciate family life. How can one teach about life if they have not lived in a family themselves. The married life may make it harder to detatch yourself and meditate on the Lords name. But it is bliss meditating on Wahegurus naam

5)Sikh Gurus never sacrificed for personal gain. Look at the story of Hind ki chaddar Shri Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji. The Hindu Brahmins from Kashmir came to him to save their Dharma from Aurangzeb. Guru Gobind Singh Ji sacrificed his whole family not for kingdoms, land, or money. But for freedom and against tyranny.

I'm afraid if you don't believe in all the Gurus, you can't be a follower of Sikhism.

Balaji said...

Mr. Singh,

I agree with most of your points above.

>> I'm afraid if you don't believe in all the Gurus, you can't be a follower of Sikhism.

This I'm not sure. Ofcourse nobody is going to show disrespect to any of the Gurus. (Neither did I) But non-Sikhs will find it easier to read and appreciate Guru Nanak than the rest.

>> His achievements include ridding the rituals of 'Sati' and the veil. - surely you can appreciate this from the old Guru.

Absolutely. Even caste equality preached by them is very appreciable. But then the unacceptable gender ratio in Punjab and castism now prevalent among Sikhs tell us how their teachings have been wasted.

>> Sikh Gurus never sacrificed for personal gain.

hmm, as I said several Indian Kingdoms fought valiantly against the Muslims. It was common practice among women of royal households to voluntarily burn themselves to death before the males in their family went to fight the Muslims. Ours is a very sad collective history and you Sikhs probably remember it more vividly than others.

I also read your blog. Now after all the discussion we have had (especially since you know how the Gurus seemed to have handled criticism themselves), do you think hukumnaamas against the DSS followers are justified?

I even find a little disturbing the way you have described the Nirankhari episode. I cannot fathom how we can justify the Sikh response to whatever the Nirankharis were doing.

SikhsRus said...

Bala Ji,

Your mummy, daddy, brothers and sisters and the so called the father of nation "Gandhi" would have been reading Koran if it wasn't for Sikhs fighting against tyranny of people like Emperor Aurungzeb and his succesors. It is funny, Indians don't even know who their real father is. Instead of calling Guru Gobind Singh as their father, they are trying to forget and criticize him! You know what they call people that don't know who their father is? Let me give you a hint "it starts with a B". I hope one day, you will really find your real father instead of Gandhi!

Balaji said...

Sikhsrus,

I have already replied to two other commenters above who had the same misconception. In India's 1300 years old fight against Muslim oppression, Sikhs only played a marginal (but not insignificant) role. Although I hate to give advice, I urge you to read Indian history before coming up with inanities like this.

And btw I have read a little of Koran anyway. In today's world everyone must read the Koran and even the Sharia to avoid prejudices.

Balaji said...

FlyingHigh,

>> 31 comments?? wait lemme read them :D

This post has made it to the DNA front page - blogs section!

Empty Vessel Makes more noise... said...

I was reading Kabeer jee's Shalokas and I came across one that fits you pretty good. Here it is for you and others to read.

Kabeer Baans Badaaee Boondiaa, Eyon Mat Duboh Koay,
Chandan Ke Nikat Basai, Baans Sugandh Na Hoi.

Kabeer, the bamboo tree is drowned in its pride,
Drowned like that one never should
The Bamboo doesnot retain the Aromatic Smell
Even though it may dwell close to the Sandalwood.

Empty Vessel Make More Noise.... said...

here is one more for you

Kabeer Sakat Aaisaa hai, Jaisee lasan ke Khaann
Konay Baithay Khaaeaai, Pargat Hoay Nidaann.

Kabeer the fate of a non believer is like that of a garlic cell,
Even if the cloves are eaten in secrecy, it becomes obvious from its smell.

Balaji said...

... and the full ones borrow from others knowledge, is it? Please show some creativity yourself.

hmm, blogging itself is showing off in a way. I'm sure everyone has an opinion on everything. Few express themselves, I'm one of them.

Thanks for the poems though and here's one for you,

Dude sakat aaisaa hai, jaisee rotten andaa,
Chupke post karega, phir be uski demag hai thanda!

Dude, the fate of an anonymous coward is like a rotten egg,
Even if he posts in secrecy, his ignorance on the subject is apparent!

Empty Vessel Makes More Moise... said...

You did a great job. Like your favorite Ram Rahim fraud Baba, you also copied a Bhagats Bani and tried to be creative.... Remember, Empty Vessel Makes More Noise.... One line describes you perfectly....

Balaji said...

precisely, by playing on the words of Kabeer, did I insult him? Then why can't some Sikhs take it in a similar vein when DSS chief imitates Guru Gobind Singh?

Sifar said...

Yesterday you left this comment on my blog:

Thanks for the extra publicity guys. I did not in my wildest dreams think that my post will touch so many lives.

By Balaji, at 6/01/2007 7:38 PM

Instead of thanking me for the extra publicity, you should be thanking your god whom-so-ever it may be that he only made you a pussy so that you can hide behind your computer and talk all this bull shit and he did not give you the guts to go speak at a public place where Sikhs gather, or else you know what would have happened (to you).

And what lives have you touched? You shoulds be appologizing for aggravating so many people.

How do we know said...

HI Balaji: I came because you went back and posted on Sifar's blog to thank him for the extra publicity. First, i laughed when i read that comment. Then, i came here to see the "extra publicity".

BTW, if you are blogging for publicity, try some more intellectual posts like this one.
This post has successfully proved your intellectual prowess beyond any further doubt.

Next time, no matter what else you do, dont try the intellectual Route. Or maybe, do. We love a good joke sometimes.

But do try and stay away from being downright disgusting, which you were by posting back on Sifar's blog after knowing that you had hurt his religious sentiments.

Can't wait for your next post! Keep them Coming! I'd like one on the Iraqi CONflict next. Or perhaps, the Oil Crisis of the World. No, maybe something else that's religious. I'd love that!

Balaji said...

hmm...I found that more people have come to this post thru Sifar's link than even from the DNAindia.com front page! Guess a thank you was in order.

Cyberkitty said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
CyberHawk said...

I think the human beings have become totally and ridiculously jobless. People fight over vi and emacs to whether a reynolds is better than papermate. I personally feel as humans (which we have conveniently forgot) we have to respect everybody else's opinions and keep our opinions to ourselves. I believe all religions fundamentally have only one principle "Do good and think good". Wearing a turban or poonal or face mask just affliates you to one particular group. We are as naked as a slab of meat if we cannot think what is a moot point to unravel sick and disgusting violence.
My favorite quote from Stranger in Strangeland summarizes succintly what I mean "I've never understood how God could expect his creatures
to pick the one true religion by faith - it strikes me as a
sloppy way to run a universe."

Do we have to make it a violent place to live too? If I had to choose between a peaceful world and religion, I know where my fidelity lies!

Anonymous said...
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Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anonymous said...

hey! what happened can't you take it!!! It hurts uh!

by the way, here is the website on SAI BABA, stupid people like you consider him as GOD.

No wonder, you F---- brain can't think right

Anonymous said...

website on SAI BABA. Good luck

http://www.sokaren.se/INDEX135.HTML

Balaji said...

dude, read my post. Sai Baba was one of the fake gurus whom I had ridiculed.

singh said...

Before we call anyone fake, Do we know Who we are? What is a definition of a saint? What is the difference between a simple man and a saint? All this conversation will take you no where, if you are a Hindu i don't think you are following what your religion says? I have just studied your state of mind, you know nothing about religion any religion! Studying history doesn't mean that you can conclude out of that its, you know nothing about sacrifice and pain!

If u know any thing about NAME his sweet name your mind wouldn't be infested with all this! My friend its a disease when you contemplate something which is really baseless then what is the fun discussing that and divert others energy!

What do you know about sacrifice. it started even before this universe was created by him.

what do you know about yourelf? Do you really know you are and what is your purpose?

His sweet name is every where! this is what was practiced even at the time of Christ, Mohammad, Ram Ji, Guru sahibs, and even now,

what ever happens is his will and what ever will happen is already destined. So if you are destined to waste your energy in such petty things its his will that he has kept you away from his name, his love, but my dear never ever in your life say anything bad about a saint because GOD has hidden every thing which we cant see with these two eyes,
You have no idea how powerful he is who has created this universe! and trust me my friend he is watching us every little moment.
if you think that you can change something then feed all those poor people who are dying with pain and hunger instead of wasting your time and brain in this useless conversation.

I do not need to discuss history, as i am following what my master said. "BHARIE HATH, PER, TAN, DEH, PANI DHOTEH UTRAS KHEH, MOOT PALETE KAPPAR HOE DE SAABOON LAYE OH DHOE, BHAREA MAT PAPAN KE SANG OH DHOPE NAWE KE RANG!"

It is bani by Guru Nanak Dev Ji! it means that when you work in the fields your hands, legs and whole body becomes dirty, when you pour water the dirt goes off, and similarly your clothes get dirty and we wash them with the help of a soap, our mind is dirty too infested and impregnated with so many thoughts, it can only be washed by reciting his NAME (WAHEGURU/ ALLAH/ SO HUNG/ BUDH DHO). and this happens only if he wants.

I hope you got his message. We have no right to call any saint a fake.

Khalsa

Balaji said...

yup, appointing your relatives, that too 5 year olds, as the next guru is great sacrifice yes.

Guru Nanak didn't appoint his son as the next Guru. apparently that message was lost on 6 of his followers.

ps: all indians are Hindus. you are Hindu (Indian) too unless you are citizen of another country.

i like 3 religions; advaita (smarta brahmanism), jainism and epicureanism. but I don't believe the founders of these religions had any supernatural powers. i won't run with a sword and kill Dera Sacha Souda ppl if I were to like and follow Sikhism. i won't call anyone who replicates the actions of sankara/mahavira/epicurus as committing blasphemy.

and I don't believe any so-called "him" created this universe. i don't think there is any such thing as 'God'.

SINGH said...

well dear Mr. Balaji, u call yourself a hindu and u say that there is no such thing as God.
I dont even need to prove it, especially to those people who dont know what to do with there life!!!@@@@!!!!
just keep on spreading your negative vibes i can feel the irritation and agony inside your body.
what do you want to prove?
nothing happens without his will.
and i really wish that one day in your life you shall meet a true Sikh and a True Hindu Or a true Muslim.
Cause any Religion is not bad only people like me are bad who create confusion and say that there is God.
Go ahead my friend i will not hurt your feelings if u feel that there is no god then i am no one to interfere in this matter because as my Guru said let one beleive in what he wants!
but for me BALAJI DOES NOT EXIST AS FOR YOU GOD DOES NOT EXIST.

KHALSA

Balaji said...

first, try to find the meaning of the word Hindu.

"Jamiat-e-islami Hind", what does that mean?

Anonymous said...

Hey bravo man bravo ..you got a mind of his own who is not able to understand at all wat all have been trying to explain you...i've read all the posts but its all like talking to stone...no problem man u think what u need does not make an iota of difference in the truth..because THRUTH is to prevail..why Guruship was given to the family is beyond your understanding...u keep pondering over it...

Regarding if we are hindus or not or where we need to stay is none of your business...and if you call yourself hindu what makes u hindu do u really know that...u know what your and where are u coming from...u know i am not getting angry with but i feel pity on ignorance you have...God bless you.

SINGH said...

my dear friend balaji i dont need any meanings of any worldly words all i need is his name and love which i am getting. SO KEEP ALL THE KNOWLEDGE WITHIN YOURSELF SIR.
TANK YOU
&
GOD BLESS YOU
RWGARDS
KHALSA

God's Servant said...

Hello Mr. Balaji,

I have never seen you i never knew you before today before i read ur blog so did you never existed on this earth before today, yes for me definitely there was no balaji because i never knew abt u similar is your condition u have never met GOD or felt his presence, but the supreme is still there but it is you who is in dark

Please Chant:

Hare Krishna Hare Krishna, Krishna Krishna Hare Hare
Hare Rama Hare Rama, Rama Rama Hare Hare

Hare Krishna Hare Krishna, Krishna Krishna Hare Hare
Hare Rama Hare Rama, Rama Rama Hare Hare

Hare Krishna Hare Krishna, Krishna Krishna Hare Hare
Hare Rama Hare Rama, Rama Rama Hare Hare

Even when you are reading the mantra above you are getting blessing from GOD and you will definitely realise his presence by repeating this Mantra again & again in your subconcious mind i have done my work i am leaving rest to this Mantra above

My dear Friend i would request you not to say anything bad about any guru or Sai Baba because God, The Supreme can forgive big sins but not if you are saying anything wrong abt any saint who are his favorites

Singh said...

I second you God's Servant.
WAHEGURU WAHEGURU WAHEGURU WAHEGURU WAHEGURU WAHEGURU WAHEGURU WAHEGURU WAHEGURU WAHEGURU
WAHEGURU WAHEGURU WAHEGURU WAHEGURU
WAHEGURU WAHEGURU WAHEGURU WAHEGURU WAHEGURU WAHEGURU WAHEGURU WAHEGURU WAHEGURU WAHEGURU
WAHEGURU WAHEGURU WAHEGURU
WAHEGURU WAHEGURU WAHEGURU WAHEGURU WAHEGURU WAHEGURU WAHEGURU WAHEGURU WAHEGURU WAHEGURU
WAHEGURU WAHEGURU WAHEGURU
WAHEGURU WAHEGURU WAHEGURU WAHEGURU WAHEGURU WAHEGURU WAHEGURU WAHEGURU WAHEGURU WAHEGURU
WAHEGURU WAHEGURU WAHEGURU
WAHEGURU WAHEGURU WAHEGURU WAHEGURU WAHEGURU WAHEGURU WAHEGURU WAHEGURU WAHEGURU WAHEGURU
WAHEGURU WAHEGURU WAHEGURU
WAHEGURU WAHEGURU WAHEGURU WAHEGURU WAHEGURU WAHEGURU WAHEGURU WAHEGURU WAHEGURU WAHEGURU
WAHEGURU WAHEGURU WAHEGURU
WAHEGURU WAHEGURU WAHEGURU WAHEGURU WAHEGURU WAHEGURU WAHEGURU WAHEGURU WAHEGURU WAHEGURU
WAHEGURU WAHEGURU WAHEGURU
WAHEGURU WAHEGURU WAHEGURU WAHEGURU WAHEGURU WAHEGURU WAHEGURU WAHEGURU WAHEGURU WAHEGURU
WAHEGURU WAHEGURU WAHEGURU
may God bless you bala ji
because who so ever abuses his saints(Bhagats) his life becomes living HELL
WE ALL WILL PRAY FOR YOU
KHALSA

Balaji said...

well, i wish such pious people think twice before killing Dera Sacha Sauda followers ...

and btw, here's my view on Krishna and Rama. in a nutshell I think Krishna was a philosopher who probably didn't believe in any God himself. And Rama, a racist Aryan king who mistreated his wife.

Anonymous said...

oh well that answers everything.. so don't even trust hindu Gods as well..man such an ignorance..you call yourself hindu..man you even dont know what hinduism is..you are even ignorant of your own roots...ha ha ha..caught in your own web..before pointing fingers on others..see rest four of them poiting towards u..."I was born intelligent but education ruined me"...
anyways all the time you've been beating drums about sikhs killing dera sacha sauda followers..but would you approve them burning public property and killing other people....if you see the current news i believe what crimes the master of such deras have done...well signing off...keep on ignoring.

Singh said...

my dear friend please eread my blog carefully! i said that you have not met real sikhs you are just sitting there and contemplating i you really are worried that much then why dont you come here and take some action.
At least some one is doing it for a good reason.
And If i say it is all a political stunt to make people fool like you, who just sits and laughs.
What is your participation? if someone picked sword, Where were you that time?
OH I GOT IT READING HISTORY CONTEMPLATING! GET UP MY FRIEND! COME OUT IN REAL WORLD & GROW UP!
GOD BLESS

tegh said...

u r not even a HINDU as you dont beleive in GOD and U are worried about dera sacha sauda who are beleivers and they beleive in god too,

So i cannot relate Why are you wasting your time. People like me have plenty of it.

But what i think is that you are far away from reality and you do have problems in your personal life!

and i am sorry to say that these problems will keep growing because there is no faith in anything! so u didnot answered God's Servant's blog as he said that you dont beleive in god but what he said is true and you tried to get away from the topic.

Singh said...

What do you have to say Mr BALAJI.
God bless
KHALSA

SINGH said...

Dear friend
I asked a question about you from God and the answer for you is : page number 597!!"SRI GURU GRANTH SAHIB"
GURU SAHIB SAID,

Like a fish without water is the faithless cynic, who dies of thirst.



So shall you die, O mind, without the Lord, as your breath goes in vain. ||1||



O mind, chant the Lord`s Name, and praise Him



Without the Guru, how will you obtain this juice? The Guru shall unite you with the Lord. ||Pause||



For the Gurmukh, meeting with the Society of the Saints is like making a pilgrimage to a sacred shrine.



The benefit of bathing at the sixty-eight sacred shrines of pilgrimage is obtained by the Blessed Vision of the Guru`s Darshan. ||2||



Like the Yogi without abstinence, and like penance without truth and contentment,



so is the body without the Lord`s Name; death will slay it, because of the sin within



The faithless cynic does not obtain the Lord`s Love; the Lord`s Love is obtained only through the True Guru.



One who meets with the Guru, the Giver of pleasure and pain, says Nanak, is absorbed in the Lord`s Praise. ||4||7||


KHALSA

Anonymous said...

Singh Sahib

i hope Mr bala can understands this..we started the topic after 3 yrs again after he started the post...he says he is a leaner but i dont think he has learned much...he has the same mindset...i remember a story where a man went to monk and he wud like to learn..and while welcoming the guest and talking to him, the monk started pouring the tea in his cup, now he is talking and pouring the tea, the guest is watching the monk that he is still going ahead and pouring the tea in already filled cup...when the guest cud not take it..stopped the monk and told him master you are trying to fill the cup which has no space....monk laughed and said this is your first lesson that you need to unlearn what u have learned all throughout your life if you need to learn from me....

i hope it can make some sense to you bala..before making any comment pls do some research THOROUGHLY...if you need any answers...YOU ARE WELCOME...post your question...but come with an attitude to learn.

Singh said...

I totally agree to what you said sir for balla...
jeeee

well i will also remind what guru sahib said about this guy thats really amazing

and he admits that what ever is written in guru granth sahib is true!

so BALA JI IS A FAKE JUST WANTS TO ATTRACT PEOPLE'S ATTENTION.

WE GOT YOU BALA.....G

SINGH said...

Dont worry BALA g we have got more before you go to sleep.
this is what you wanted
to provoke people and have fun
and laugh
but you really dont know u have no base on which u talk. yOUR KNOWLEDGE IS TOO LITTLE
THOUGH U ARE GOOD AT CHANGING TOPICS WHEN U SEE THAT SOMEONE GOT YOU
WHERE ARE YOU NOW? YAH MUST BE SLEEPING!!!!!! WELL KEEP SLEEPING WHILE YOU ARE STILL UP!! AND BURN THE ICE!

WELL ITS A LITTLE RIDDLE FOR U MY FRIEND BUT I DONT THINK U WILL BE ABLE TO SOLVE THIS!
GOOD LUCK

Balaji said...

ok, let me learn.

1. what is the difference between corrupt politicians who pass party/govt posts to their family members and 6 of the 10 Sikh gurus?

2. a 5 year old is a learned Sikh guru, is it? its just child abuse.

3. what is the problem, if someone imitates the actions of the 10th Guru? Didn't the Sikh Gurus themselves adopt several teachings of other non-Sikh poets?

4. will Guru Nanak approve the current caste system prevalent among the Sikhs and the way you are killing Dalit Sikhs?

5. if Guru Nanak were to live today will he be a member of the official khalsa or the ones like dera sacha sauda? i think Guru Nanak wud prefer the dera.

6. Guru Nanak refused to make his son, the successor. Will he approve the way 6 gurus made the grouping into a family business?

singh said...

WHO HIMSELF DOESNT KNOW WHAT TO DO WITH HIS LIFE AND HAVE NOT LEARNT IN SO MANY YEARS WHAT WILL HE LEAN NOW?

NOW THIS IS YOUR PUNISHMENT THAT GOD HAS KEPT YOU AWAY FROM HIMSELF! AND PLEASE READ THE PREVIOUS BLOGS
YOU NEVER GAVE ANY ANSWER CAUSE YOU ARE AFRAID, SCARED LIKE A 2 YEAR OLD AND YOU ALWAYS CHANGE THE TOPIC! GURU NANAK SAHIB Answered your question
and read my blogs very carefully
and i was right about the riddle you are dying in aggony and pain and therte is nop love in your life and you just can not tolorate love whereever u see that!

P.S. read the previous blogs
KHALSA

jaggi said...

o bala bala its certain that your death is near and you will die with a lot of pain, you are unstable, your thoughts are paradoxical, you can not reach conclusion hence your life is absolutely a waste accusing others. what do you know about DHRUV AND PRALADH.
i think you were a victim, what i see that you have no control in life and your parents failed to raise you as a good human being! You are a threat to society and other beings!
siting there and dictating but not doing anything if u are worried about DSS then go out there and do something,
well what can you do because you are afraid to go out in field and fight like a warrior just sitting there and playing like a hypocrite.

huh?

Balaji said...

i'm afraid to go out? roftl!

most of my weekends are spent on door2door campaigning. i'm a street fighter!

check out my campaigns.

1. Koramangala Smartvotes.

2. BJP Campaign during last Lok Sabha. I have since resigned from that party.

SINGH said...

thank God You are out of BJP otherwise you would have destroyed millions of faiths!
anyways if you are a street fighter why dont you go out and fight for dss (BELEIVERS IN GOD)

you just can not co relate what you have written,
people like you just know how to praise yourselves!
and thats the end of it! Balaji you are not even close to what i wrote and the other people wanted to explain you.
and i can see that you have not read every letter of what i wrote.

go through every word and then come back!

singh said...

and as i said you just change the topic when you cannot tolerate,
you have been ignored by your friends, family.
thats true and you dont have any good moral values!

Haricharan Singh said...

lol
Bala is trying to learn
ok one last effort.lets see..Mr learner..I HOPE YOU WILL READ EACH AND EVERY WORD HERE AND WOULD NOT DEVIATE FROM THE TOPIC..EVEN I EXPECT ANSWERS FOR MY QUESTIONS...am going to answer all your questions...though you have been going off the topic everytime...being a street fighter does not mean good understanding brain in your head...however..answer to every question is below:-

. what is the difference between corrupt politicians who pass party/govt posts to their family members and 6 of the 10 Sikh gurus?

ANS:- the difference is between and unlearned person and a learned one.

2. a 5 year old is a learned Sikh guru, is it? its just child abuse.

oh really...was he told to work as a child labour...Mr bala...if treating the ill and guiding the unlearned people like you needs age...then think wat you need to...age has nothing to do with level of understanding and expertise + intelligence...even i count your intelligence to a child...that could be a child labour...if you had even an iota of spirtuality undertanding..u wud have never questioned this...now wat if luv and kush fighting an army...was it a child labour?.. i am stating examples keeping in mind you know them

let me ask you one thing...if i say you that you can never turn old which i can make a prophecy for you that you'll never turn old...would you take it as a comment or insult...if you could answer this question correctly...i can measure your intelligence and your level of knowledge

3. what is the problem, if someone imitates the actions of the 10th Guru? Didn't the Sikh Gurus themselves adopt several teachings of other non-Sikh poets?
THERE IS CERTAINLY A PROBLEM...why wud i allow a normal human being to match with superhuman being like GURU GOBIND SINGH JI...why would a GOD incarnation need to adopt teachings of any non sikh poet...they are just using it to make people like you to understand the basic reason why you are on this earth...and another reason was to bring humanity at one level...it means sikh religion does not belong to only sikhs it is a universal...teachings are universal..if you need to have a definition of a sikh...it means a learner....for lord almighty a person who is wearing an attire of sikh may not be a true sikh but any person on this earth who follows him and go by his word is a true Sikh....i hope you can understand this....
just to sum up..would your wife allow your double or anyone who imitates you.. to be with her...if yes...i cannot explain you anymore...

4. will Guru Nanak approve the current caste system prevalent among the Sikhs and the way you are killing Dalit Sikhs?

Let me be very honest with this..no human being is allowed to kill a fellow human being...it is unfortunate though..no saint..no God wud approve this...but l am surprised this incident occured is disturbing you...wat do u have to say about talim tigers..you are a tamilian right?..wat is your religion?....are they doing the right things...things are much peach here...so take care about your home first...even today in The Tribune there was an article where innocent women are being illtreated by Tamil millitants...dont argue if you arenot fully prepared.

5. if Guru Nanak were to live today will he be a member of the official khalsa or the ones like dera sacha sauda? i think Guru Nanak wud prefer the dera.

If Guru Nanak patshah was here today he wud have never preferred any dera or any political party..no GOD needs support of any dera or political parties...
you keep on commenting on official Khalsa...wat do you know about khalsa? ignorance is really a dangerous thing..before writing abt khalsa please research about KHALSA.

Haricharan Singh said...

6. Guru Nanak refused to make
his son, the successor. Will he approve the way 6 gurus made the grouping into a family business?

I cannot explain you this because you will not give up...if you were a learner...all the comments on this post..you HAVE NOT LEARNED ANYTHING...am trying again...Guruship is always given to a deserving one...there was no grouping in the family...oh mr unlearned fellow..understand..Guruship was even not awarded to elder brothers..it always succeeded to deserving one...if you consider that Guru Gobind Singh gave the Guruship to Guru Granth Sahib because he had no successor..then u need to go and read the reason why and what kind of personality Guru ji were...Guru Granth sahib is given the gusuship because a human form is mortal..but his teachings are not...Wat a GURU Does is to teach..to enlighten the path...so a shabad Guru is our new Guru...who is immortal...we go and pray to our guru...we ask for enlilghtement..that is given in the form of shabad...if you compare Lord Rama, Lord Krishna and Guru Gobind singh to small persons like me and you....my only advice is to stop that...do not fell into a grave dug by urself...take their name everyday so that they can enlighten you...

I would not leave my identity as anonymous....this is another servant of true lord...you may call him as RAM, KRISHNA OR GOBIND.

Keep on coming..i am sure...u wud still be zero...lol.

SINGH said...

ha ha ha ha
i second yoy HARICHARAN SINGH JI
BUT BALA JI HAS NO BRAINS HE WONT UNDERSTAND!
WELL NO WORRIES HE IS GIVING US FREE ENTERTAINMENT AT LEAST

Balaji said...

1. yes, a 5 year old is very learned! and on 6 occasions, there was no deserving successor outside the family. yup.

2. lol. don't embarrass yourself. a 5 yr old kid was used in the family business. thats all.

i have already said, Rama was (fictitious or otherwise) a racist king who mistreated his wife. not interested in the stories of luv or kush.

3. superhuman? yeah, right!

4. i'm one of the most vociferous opponents of LTTE. Sinhalese are very nice people. i like them. i visited Srilanka as recently as 3 months ago.

5. the current khalsa runs around with swords killing Dalits.

6. we'll never know if one of Guru Gobind Singh's children wud have succeeded him, if they weren't killed.

singh said...

u havent read
that u never saw any khalsa my friend
god bless all

haricharan said...

just as expected...mr stone head talks again...thanks for the efforts for going thru..you can continue with your useless thoughts....just as your blogs name A(musing) fellow...u are true to your word..go on man..we dont loose anything...but trust me you have given me your level of understanding..i am not going to hit my head on the stone..

live in your world..with your intelligence...there may be many of you...GOD BLESS YOU.

one last word of advice...start learning
...even if you dont...wat difference it makes to truth
LOL i wish i cud put some laughing smiles here.

haricharan said...

However, my question is still unanswered..
no prob..i know u havent gone thru well...no issues..not expected now..

Singh said...

But one thing i like being a part of this conversation besides all your efforts on questioning Guru Sahib, and all alligations like you said child abuse!

my friend i have realised that my faith is increasing in GOD and my gurus preaching. Moreover i have realised that people like you are so predictable like an old hindi movie.

So Thank you dear Mr Balaji.
...... Bless you
i dont know who will bless you as there is no so called GOD for you!
take care

Singh said...

copied from your posts bala
Mr. Singh,

I agree with most of your points above.

>> I'm afraid if you don't believe in all the Gurus, you can't be a follower of Sikhism.

This I'm not sure. Ofcourse nobody is going to show disrespect to any of the Gurus. (Neither did I) But non-Sikhs will find it easier to read and appreciate Guru Nanak than the rest.

just to let you know that sri guru nanak dev ji's jot went on till ninth Guru and if in case you study GURU GRANTH SAHIB all the guru's said NANAK KAHE OR THEY HAVE MENTIONED THEIR BANI AS NANAK,
AFTER THAT THE NANAK'S JOT CONVERTED INTO THE NAME GOBIND!
its all a message
but people like u dont get it but i am writing it for people who have confusions!

KHALSA